Verkrüppelter Falter entfaltet sich!

Moin Bela.

Das kann eigentlich nicht sein und käme einem kleinen Wunder nah.
Bist du dir sicher, dass du hier nicht zwei Tiere miteinander verwechselt hast?

Gruß
Rudi

Es hat schon mal ein Wunder gegeben....

ok...es ist ein Wunder geschehen.

Das Wunder ist das zweite geschlüpfte Weibchen.... Da war wohl irgendwo noch eine vergessene Puppe im Kasten.
Das Zeitfenster, in dem der Falter die Hämolymphe in die Flügel pumpen kann ist sehr kurz. Ist der Vorgang abgeschlossen, trocknen die Flügel ab und haben keinen Lymphfluss mehr. Man könnte sie als abgestorbene Teile betrachten. Solche Vorgänge sind außer am 1. April irreversibel.

I observed that Lemonia philopalus adults fully inflated their wings 12 hours after emerging from the pupa, and Archon apollinus 1 day after emergence. It's not impossible.

Fotos?

Zitat von bellargus

That's kind of hard to believe, but maybe in your case, the wings never fully dried? I mean how on earth would they be able to dry up completely and then still inflate?If that was the case you would have material for some publications...

Greetings Dennis

When butterflies/moths emerge from the pupa, the wings are usually not 'wet', so why would they 'dry up'?

Completely developed adults can stay inside the pupa for many days, for example in Lemonidae. They wait for the right moment to emerge simultaneously. How do you explain that the wings don't dry up inside the pupa?

As far as I know, the wings get stiff only after they have been fully or partially inflated, or in very old/dead specimens.

Solche Wunder gibt es einfach nicht, zumal die Flügel ja bereits steinhart gewesen sein sollen.

Hello Klaas,
like all insects, butterflys too are very smooth("wet") every time when changing the cuticula. As larvaes so like adults.
This is the only possibility to inflate wings. If you ever saw fresch imerged butterflies spreading their wings and there is an accident or wind, you notice the smoothness of the wings. Then, after an hour or maybe more, the wings dry to their hard form. Now they are not more smooth, they are hard to take the physical nessessaries of insect flight. This procedure is not variable! If the wings are not inflated, they dry too.
So lets say, it's the error of an 14year old newcommer or what else.
This can not happen for my oppinion.
I breed butterflies and Moth since 50 years and never ever a butterfly was able to spread the wings after failed directly after hatching.

So, möchte nur noch meinen Senf dazu geben. Bei mir ist vor einigen Tagen ein Weibchen von Cerura vinula ,, geschlüpft" es saß 2 Tage regungslos mit unausgebreiteten Flügeln im Gaze-Käfig. Dann am 3. Tag nachmittags hatte sie es doch tatsächlich geschafft ihre Flügel (einen Flügel) zu entfalten. Somit sei gesagt, es ist definitiv möglich, kann morgen Bilder dazu abgeben.

Mfg
Manuel

Zitat von hoehlearnd

(..) after an hour or maybe more, the wings dry to their hard form. (...) This procedure is not variable! If the wings are not inflated, they dry too.
(...) I breed butterflies and Moth since 50 years and never ever a butterfly was able to spread the wings after failed directly after hatching.

I agree that once the adult has started to inflate its wings, and it fails, there is no chance that the wings can be inflated later on.
However, not all adults try to inflate their wings directly after emergence. Adults (in some species?) Can wait many hours. Archon apollinus need a suitable spot to bask in the sun, and Lemonia philopalus regularly wait from the morning until dusk before they start and the resulting wings are perfect.
So the theory of you and Dennis about procedures and molecular processes might seem plausible, but the whole thing is more complicated. Your theory also doesn't explain why the wings don't stiffen inside the pupa, as there can be air between the wing and the pupal skin for many days before emergence.

Regards, Klaas

This is certainly possible with some species. In animals from biotopes with possible short-term weather extremes, such as in the mountains, it is known that the wing can unfold many hours after hatching.

But we are talking about Mimas tiliae and an animal that was completely crippled 6 days earlier and hatched completely without wings.
This in turn is a little biological wonder.
And it is good that Bela shared this with us, even if there is unfortunately no photo of the animal 6 days ago that would have documented the event in a rounded manner.

Hello Klaas, i totaly agree with you that some species have different possibilities of developing. Archon is a very "primitive" species as the whole genus Parnassius is. They live in special conditions, so they must have a possibility to react to hard conditions. So it might be nesseccary not to inflate their wings directly after hatch or to wait for better conditions in the pupaehull. That mahes sense.
But Sphingids are "higher developed".
All processes like molting are hardly determinated. The insects can do it only in this way and only one time. If interrupted, they cannot start again at the beginning.
With "hard" breeding conditions hatching might fail. This perhaps because of missing fluid in the pupae. No fluid, no haemolymph fluid, no streching.
We all know that "shit happens", when butterflies hatch.
I don't know the handling as pupae of this special individual. Perhaps it was touched before so it was an "emergency-hatch".
I never saw an individual in my breeding, that could start again hatching or moulting after many hours. The individuals that failed died without any possibility to help themselves. Bad moulted caterpillars dy in their old dry skin, adults stay with their crippled wings.
Perhaps they are able to copulate, there are some interesting scientific articles about the influence of hormones to the moulting of Saturnides, where the frontbody and the hindbody were cut off and totaly separated and then hormones have been given. That shows, that the hindbody can exist without the front, can copulate and lay fertile eggs! This works because of their nervesystem that has no brain like us but aliments the parts of the body by ganglion.
Butterflies are wonderful insects! And they still keep a lot of secrets...